Sinistar 18/02 20:34
Are we ready?
kissa 18/02 20:34
Thanks so much for coming, A/all. Sinistar Sir is going to share his thoughts on Dom/mes, Masters/Mistresses, Tops, and Sadists.
Sinistar 18/02 20:35
I'm hardly the be-all end-all expert, so I am going to do what I do in class and rely on input to drive the discussion.
kissa 18/02 20:35
yes, Sir, Professor, Sir
Sinistar 18/02 20:37
I want to go on record as saying that a portion of my view isn't the most popular here, but as I'm the speaker, I get to at least get the ball rolling
Sinistar 18/02 20:38
I see Dom/me and Master/Mistress as being on the same D/s spectrum. Both are Dominant categories; I see it as a matter of degree.
Sinistar 18/02 20:38
It is the amount of control/surrender granted to the D-type that really makes the difference.
Sinistar 18/02 20:41
Thoughts? Is the difference between D/s and M/s simply a matter of degree?
Sinistar 18/02 20:42
Or is there something more fundamentally different between a power exchange and TPE
kissa 18/02 20:43
There is the total ownership/property/objectification thing that is the Gorean end of it.
Sinistar 18/02 20:43
It is an end of the spectrum, yes. But still on the same line
Jof 18/02 20:43
Sinistar my thoughts are that that is definitely true, and only add that I believe that there are a few other differences, such as negotiations, blanket consent etc
Sinistar 18/02 20:44
Both ends negotiate; it's a matter of when and how often
kissa 18/02 20:44
How about the rest of you, do you have thoughts about it?
Jof 18/02 20:45
I like to think in a D/s power exchange relationship, consent can be given or not with every command, every order, whereas in a M/s relationship it's given at the beginning of the relationship and solidified
Sinistar 18/02 20:45
In D/s -- in my own dynamics, for example -- things are always negotiable. In a Master/slave dynamic, all the negotiations are pretty well done up front (barring completely new, unforeseen issues).
southernwildcat 18/02 20:45
I think there is a lot of gray area. How one couple may define their relationship might be different from how another defines theirs but it can all fall under the same umbrella
TLSCP 18/02 20:46
TPE can never really be total, even the most obedient slave has thoughts of rebellion
Sinistar 18/02 20:46
southernwildcat that is the crux of any power exchange. We are all individuals, so every dynamic looks a little different.
Sinistar 18/02 20:47
TLSCP and TPE isn't really possible from a practical standpoint. It might get close, but there will always have to be some leeway
TLSCP 18/02 20:48
Sinistar but power plays are very possible, as are RPs where the sub tries to wrest control
Sinistar 18/02 20:48
I don't disagree with that
southernwildcat 18/02 20:49
kissa I guess not really, because we just do what works for us, there are a few standard rules we don't follow, that I wouldn't advise for most people unless they truly trust led who they are with. We smarty of have what we have. I don't try to label it or compare it to what others have
kissa 18/02 20:50
southernwildcat, that's totally reasonable and i wouldn't expect it.
Sinistar 18/02 20:50
Labels are a framework for others to understand what we do. but they're a starting point, nothing more.
kissa 18/02 20:50
Sinistar, Sir, what would you percieve as the differing lines in the spectrum?
Sinistar 18/02 20:51
Negotiation, consent, the amount of power exchanged
Jof 18/02 20:51
I think titles are a double edged sword... they help give an idea of what we are and do, but titles should be earned regardless
kissa 18/02 20:51
"no" is a tough one
Sinistar 18/02 20:52
Some on the slave side say the only "no" possible is the one which breaks the dynamic.
Sinistar 18/02 20:52
Others say that "no" is possible, but has serious consequences or the slave mentality may be such that saying "no" may be all but impossible
Sinistar 18/02 20:54
Most subs have a hard time defying their Dominant
kissa 18/02 20:55
Thoughts?
Sinistar 18/02 20:55
Jof but if it's something that threatens the sub's health or wellbeing, that no is a must
TLSCP 18/02 20:55
that is why there are limits
Jof 18/02 20:56
Sinistar yes, but why would a real Dominant threaten the subs health or wellbeing in the first place?
TLSCP 18/02 20:56
boundaries the dynamic can not pass
Sinistar 18/02 20:56
Doms sometimes slip
Jof 18/02 20:56
This is true, nobody is infallible
Sinistar 18/02 20:56
I have a sub who wanted me to help her get past a fear of belts in impact.
Sinistar 18/02 20:56
What if I had misjudged and introduced the actual impact at the wrong time?
Sinistar 18/02 20:57
She needs to be able to tell me "no"
southernwildcat 18/02 20:57
I don't have a problem saying no to anyone, but my Sir. But I trust him and he would never harm me. Hurt me yes, but only because I like it. But actually cause me harm, no.
Jof 18/02 20:57
Sinistar why communication is so important, but I do see your point. Although, to me, no is never a safeword
southernwildcat 18/02 20:57
To me that is what a safeword is for..,
Sinistar 18/02 20:58
It is
Sinistar 18/02 20:58
whether it's pinapple or red or what have you
Jof 18/02 20:58
I'm saying the word "no" in scene is not a safeword. That's why we have our safewords
Sinistar 18/02 20:59
I'm not talking scene. I'm talking about life in the dynamic
Jof 18/02 20:59
Apologies, I was speaking in the context akin to the scene you had laid out about impact
kissa 18/02 21:00
i consider a safeword exclusively for being in an untenable position - muscle cramp, joint lock, feet being touched by rope. For me, it isn't "stop this forever" it's "please stop to fix the thing"
Sinistar 18/02 21:00
Even with that, it was not about a scene. It was about something broader.
Jof 18/02 21:00
kissa I use 3 safewords (not stoplight) they're similar in meaning but each serves a dual purpose
Sinistar 18/02 21:01
The main reason I'm discussing broader than scene is because we're talking Doms and Masters at the moment, which is more than just play
Sinistar 18/02 21:01
Far more
Sinistar 18/02 21:02
Which may be the key difference between these and the Top or Sadist designation
TLSCP 18/02 21:02
submission is about far more than just play
TLSCP 18/02 21:03
as is Domination
Sinistar 18/02 21:03
Of course. Although one can temporarily submit or Dominate for a scene
Andromeda 18/02 21:03
I was just going to add to the section on "no." As a sub, I am less inclined to say "no" and more inclined to say something like "I am uncomfortable, can we slow down?" I am not widely experienced but both my Dominants were sensitive enough to hear the difference between resistance for pleasure and real distress.
Andromeda 18/02 21:04
Which I suppose is the same as a stoplight method.
Sinistar 18/02 21:04
Nuance is important and one of the reasons a Dom must be attentive
Andromeda 18/02 21:05
But I'm hearing that in an M/s relationship, that alert to discomfort is less common, and less welcome. Part of the established dynamic, is that correct?
Jof 18/02 21:05
Here's a question, do you think a Top would need to be any less attentive, though they may not know the intricacies of their bottom?
Sinistar 18/02 21:05
No. Any Dominant must be alert to the submissive's comfort level.
Sinistar 18/02 21:06
I think a good Top will always be attentive, but he/she may not always pick up on more subtle cues
Sinistar 18/02 21:06
if it's a new play partner, for example
Sinistar 18/02 21:06
My sub goes completely quiet and nonverbal during impact. I have to watch her movements and how she holds her body to see if she's at or past her limit.
Sinistar 18/02 21:08
A Master would be no less attentive. But the ability for the slave to call "red" may be limited.
kissa 18/02 21:08
How can you tell, Sinistar Sir?
southernwildcat 18/02 21:09
Sinistar I agree, Sir is extremely well at reading me and the non-verbal clues that I give.
Sinistar 18/02 21:09
She tenses up. She starts trying to pull away.
Sinistar 18/02 21:10
I've broken paddles on her ass without a sound. But if she starts to go rigid, it's a major stoplight
Sinistar 18/02 21:12
To me, a Top is a sort of temporary Dom/me. someone who controls a scene and little else
kissa 18/02 21:13
It's a power exchange, that may or not have an emotional connection. Play partners
Jof 18/02 21:14
I had a bottom, she wasn't my sub, and all we would do were impact sessions and aftercare. No emotional connection (aside from plutonic friends)
kissa 18/02 21:14
So, what's the draw to just having a play partner?
southernwildcat 18/02 21:15
kissa i would say an outlet for both the top and bottom...
Sinistar 18/02 21:15
You have needs that may not be met in a current dynamic. You may not have a dynamic
kissa 18/02 21:15
I would think that it's akin to being fuck buddies, right?
Jof 18/02 21:16
I got my Sadist itch out, she got emotional release, she was also on the autism spectrum (super high functioning) and it helped her with her sensory stuff
Sinistar 18/02 21:16
Not too far off although there may or may not be sex involved
southernwildcat 18/02 21:16
kissa but with that type of play sex doesn't have to be involved, perhaps the bottom needs the catharsis that comes from impact play and the top enjoys giving it
Andromeda 18/02 21:16
By those definitions, I have been known to Top and occasional partner for play. But I have no desire to Domme. It's nice to have a clear cut to the terms. To answer you, kissa, for me the desire to Top comes from a separate kink which I occaisonally get a taste for, but don't desire all the time.
Jof 18/02 21:17
Andromeda absolutely! I like to bottom occasionally (not impact though) but am not submissive
Sinistar 18/02 21:18
it is not necessarily directly tied to being a Dom/me or Master/Mistress
kissa 18/02 21:18
Mmm i might disagree
southernwildcat 18/02 21:19
Jof Andromeda yes!! I often find a level of catharsis from intense impact play. It does a lot for my moods and mental state.
Sinistar 18/02 21:19
I know a sadist who really isn't a Dominant type outside of the scene.
Jof 18/02 21:19
kissa you like to bite people right? Enjoy inflicting that pain, but are not a Domme
Sinistar 18/02 21:19
That's the primal
kissa 18/02 21:20
A Top, though, is the person controlling the scene. Not always the Do-er/pain giver
Sinistar 18/02 21:21
There are alot of different kinds of scenes. Not all involve pain
amalthea 18/02 21:22
i dont really agree on the sadist being a top
kissa 18/02 21:23
the Top would be the one in charge of the scene
Sinistar 18/02 21:23
You may be right. My own view is colored because I am a sadistic Dom
kissa 18/02 21:23
A Sadist would be someone that gets off giving pain
Jof 18/02 21:24
amalthea how so?
amalthea 18/02 21:24
isnt sadist more of a lifestyle then just scenes?
Jof 18/02 21:25
amalthea a Sadist enjoys giving pain (physical or mental) to others consensually
amalthea 18/02 21:26
i know that it just i dont think everyone have easy to just turning it on and of during a scene so i cant agree with it being a top thing
kissa 18/02 21:26
A Sadist likes giving it, a masochist likes getting it
Sinistar 18/02 21:26
I don't turn the Dominance on and off during a scene or otherwise either. But it is a bit of a binary, as kissa noted
Jof 18/02 21:27
Very good point though, I'm not always sadistic
kissa 18/02 21:27
It is only when a Sadist gives it to me
Sinistar 18/02 21:27
A masochist doesn't stub their toe in the middle of the night and cream their pants
Andromeda 18/02 21:33
Sinistar I have a question related to the discussion
Andromeda 18/02 21:33
You and Jof both talked about being D/s leaning over M/s leaning. What appeals to you more about D/s over M/s, and what do you surmise appeals to Masters about M/s?
Jof 18/02 21:34
Andromeda I like having to continuously earn my subs submission, knowing that with every order they are presented a choice, and they still choose to submit
Sinistar 18/02 21:35
I like to leave the submissive some leeway. I have areas I like to control, but the micromanaging only appeals in certain aspects. It troubles me when someone says she cannot say "no"
Andromeda 18/02 21:35
Jof that is hugely insightful for me thank you
Andromeda 18/02 21:35
Sinistar *nods* I can see why that would feel kind of wrong...I've never been a slave either. I admire women who are capable but I am almost certainly *not*
kissa 18/02 21:40
Okay, so M/s is hard. Do you think that you could or even want to move down or up the spectrum?
Andromeda 18/02 21:41
kissa I enjoy some light formalities but I don't think I'd want to move any further towards slave, no
kissa 18/02 21:42
Andromeda protocol is something you enjoy or the power exchange deepening?
Sinistar 18/02 21:42
Im an educator. Learning always appeals to me.
kissa 18/02 21:43
That's fair, Sir, so how do you go about getting that education?
Sinistar 18/02 21:43
I never would have found out I was a Daddy Dom without having a little
kissa 18/02 21:43
Perfect
Andromeda 18/02 21:43
kissa both, really. But it depends on what he desires to control. I don't think I could void myself of all control/decision making.
kissa 18/02 21:44
Andromeda that is totally reasonable
kissa 18/02 21:45
Whereas i prefer to yield to a Man.
chrissa 18/02 21:45
I think I could be in an M/s dynamic. I don't like having too much leeway and feel best when strictly controlled...
kissa 18/02 21:47
chrissa me, too. Do you think that may have something to do with having an animal core?
chrissa 18/02 21:48
kissa ive never considered that, actually but possibly... it's like being Owned as a pet, or similar correlations.
Sinistar 18/02 21:48
I do like pet play. It has strong parallels to DD/lg
kissa 18/02 21:48
chrissa you might have something there, though i am more of a wild animal than you
@sweethoney-2585 18/02 21:49
Every dynamic is different and offers different experiences and guidelines. This one's current Master prefers more protocols than this one's last Dominant. But this one has always been a slave, even when she is not called so
chrissa 18/02 21:49
Sinistar oh see, I have nothing to do with DD/lg personally. But I'm very much a puppy dog. *grin*
chrissa 18/02 21:50
kissa that's true, you've got spunk and fight in you. More than me. *giggles* but having someone to tame that has to be special.
kissa 18/02 21:50
Sinistar Sir, i have been known to call previous Owners Daddy because kitties, even little spotted ones, need Daddies, too
@sweethoney-2585 18/02 21:50
It has always been about whom this one chooses to give control of herself to.
chrissa 18/02 21:50
sweethoney oh that's interesting! what's your definition of slave?
@sweethoney-2585 18/02 21:52
chrissa This one believes it is more about choosing to give control of herself over. Some Masters have given this one more room to show her personality. Some have not. It is more about the specific dynamic than the strict definition this one's Master says
Sinistar 18/02 21:53
One might argue that the dynamic is what provides the definition, sweethoney
chrissa 18/02 21:54
sweethoney that's so true, I know a Master that has owned several but all the slaves have their own personalities and uniqueness... they have the same expectations but there are slight differences in how they are used or cared for... so yeah, the individual dynamic is what is unique
@sweethoney-2585 18/02 21:56
chrissa This one recognizes that the dynamic changes and evolves as the relationship deepens. This one's current Master prefers more of a babygirl and less of this one's passionate side. This one's last Master preferred a bland slave.
kissa 18/02 21:56
We are all different and valuable
Sinistar 18/02 21:57
*smiles* that you are
kissa 18/02 21:59
The dynamic will be slightly or majorly different with each
Sinistar 18/02 22:00
That goes for everyone
@sweethoney-2585 18/02 22:01
This one is sure that is true, kissa. This one has seen that with Master's other slaves. Even if this one is not poly.
Andromeda 18/02 22:01
Related question: Do you think that M/s or DD/lg dynamics can exist as subsets within the context of a D/s relationship?
Sinistar 18/02 22:02
I think it's all Dominance and submission.
kissa 18/02 22:02
sweethoney right. Even with Sinistar's chain, everyone on it is an individual
Sinistar 18/02 22:02
just varying levels
chrissa 18/02 22:09
I think BDSM is such a broad umbrella where so many dynamics fall into... its hard to try and categorize.
Sinistar 18/02 22:09
And few if any actually fit solidly under one and not another
Sinistar 18/02 22:09
but the categories at least help us to understand one another
chrissa 18/02 22:10
Labels help to a certain degree, for sure.
chrissa 18/02 22:10
I also think so much is shaped by who we are with and where they take you. I've always said with the right partner, I could see myself being into just about anything.
kissa 18/02 22:12
They do. I am simply not going to have enough in common with a bedroom Dom to do much more than have a cuddle and a fuck. *shrugs* it isnt going to last long